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Why is it your opinion that these are wasted discussions, SlimChance. This is just one of many. Are all wasted discussions?
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It was one ship amongst many...that one ship did seem to have the intent to be as obstructive as possible, and certainly, went at the Israeli soldiers long before shot at. The other ships didn't have any of this trouble which makes me think this was a ship filled with people determined to 'rock the boat' and make international waves. They have succeeded and more fools Israel for walking into that snake-pit
Do I like what Israel did? No....heavy handed, badly dealt with and typical of their bully-boy tactics.
Do I agree with them regarding the blockades...yes and no. They do need to stop Hamas from doing what they can to wipe Israel off the map, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the ordinary palestians. And Hamas take full advantage of the Palestians misery and needs to get what they can that will bring them closer to their ultimate goal.
For me its simple....if Hamas ever gets a permanent stronghold and base in Gaza, I truly do believe Iran will be involved and Iran has and will use what arsenal at its disposal with the one purpose in mind....to obliterate Israel. And whether I like Israel or not, it has the right to exist as much as any other nation.
Gaza in my opinion is a land made up of a people without a real home......and since no one can agree on who's land the west banks is, I'm not even going there....but surely there is a way to sort this out....but until Hamas take the first and most important step of publically saying that Israel has the right to exist, NOTHING will ever be resolved.
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DaisyUnchained, what if the West Bank agrees to two states but Gaza does not?
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ImaDummy (6/6/2010)
Bree, amen to that.
KBE,
*S*
That's always been one of my favourite songs too.
I don't agree that Israel broke international law by boarding that ship in international waters. I'm probably alone in that opinion. *S*
I would say hamas is at war with Israel, and in response, Israel is trying to defend itself against the hamas aggression.
No, I don't think of gaza as a state. I think of it as a stateless land. There is no legitimate authority there. The Palestinian Authority (which is the only legitimate authority for the palestinians imo) has no authority nor say in that land.
Reality, Hamas is a group, not a country. In the real world, countries can't wage war against group within a country. Either Israel is at war with Gaza, or they can not be closing the borders of Gaza and blockading Gaza. Gaza is not Hamas, Hamas is not Gaza. Israel is not defending anything by using aggression.
As for Gaza not being a state. There is no legitimate authority there according to what you feel. In fact and in law, Hamas is a legally elected authority. Just because none of us think they should be, does not mean anything. Hell, according to many on these forums, your black president is not a legitimate authority. And according to millions around the world, none of the west has legitimate leaders. Kind of makes your idea on that mute.
Zanny, you didn't start the fire, but your country certainly adds most of the fuel to keep it going.
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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| Bree - my understanding is that the Gaza strip in inhabited by Palestinian refugees from the Israeli-Arab war in the 40's.....just about any Palestinian I know whats to go back to their 'home' on the West Bank....not Gaza. However, in your scenario, a line would have to be drawn....a compromise......'we'll give you some of the land in the West Bank but you leavethe Gaza strip' kind of deal.
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Bree, you raise a good point.
The PA has been trying to hold elections because some of the leadership is getting old and they need to elect new younger members. However, the palestinian population is split between gaza and the west bank. Any election must represent both populations.
therefore, because hamas thwarts any attempts at an election in the gaza, in effect, they deny elections to all palestinians.
The PA has tried to have talks with hamas regarding some kind of understanding so that the government can have enough legitimacy to deal with the international community, and perhaps be able to hold elections. (The talks were held in Egypt) Even though hamas agreed to everything in the document, they refused to sign it. It is my opinion that they did that because they know they would lose any fair election and therefore lose any claim to legitimacy.
the PA has tried to hold talks with the west regarding preliminary peace talks, but, because they only represent the west bank, their legitimacy is watered down.
Hamas is as obstructionist as they can possibly be.
Kasteele,
you also raise a good point, when you point out that hamas is a group and not a country. I can think of several "groups" that are fighting wars against countries.
to put it in perspective, think of how other countries are dealing with this....
Look at Sri Lanka and how they finally ended their "group"
Look at China and how they deal with Tibetan separatists, or Falun Gong
or the US and how they deal with Al Qaeda or Taliban.
you can probably think of others....
Seems like Israel is particularly restrained when you put it into context....
and maybe hamas did get elected, but, they gave up that legitimacy when they refused the 3 basic demands of the quartet and forcibly removed fatah from the gaza. Currently, they control roughly half the palestinian population, and they do THAT through force.
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Lets say that the Gaza Palestinians were given the same amount of land (twice the size of the city of Washington DC) in exchange for Gaza. They would have a contiguous nation. Would you be behind that, DaisyUnchained?
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Its not really a case of whether I am behind something or not Bree.....I happen to understand the need for a home...I also understand the anger held when your home is taken from you and you become a dispersed people. But I also believe that Israel has the right to live and exist. I am not an expert on the issues nor am I privy to the finer political points on talks held between the two nations. All I know is that the Gaza strip has become the holding area for a large number of dispersed Palestinians, it wasn't their 'home' previous to the Arab-Israeli war and so no, I don't think it should be their home now. Except if they agree that it should become the new Palestine.....thats hardly for me to comment on.
I am not homeless, I have a land and I feel secure in having that place called home. Ideally, the Palestinians should be allowed back to the lands they held before, but as that has been a bone of contention for however many hundreds of years, its not going to happen. So could they be given a new home? Who knows....
Incidentally, I have no idea how large Washington City is, but it sounds like a bum deal....an entire population squished into two large cities? 'chuckles' The words sardine and can come to mind 's' Are you in favour of that scenario?
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Arm chair diplomats who have no idea of what they speak. have any of you been there? have any of you walked through how they live. Either Israel or Gaza, or even the West bank? I was not allowed to enter Gaza or the West bank, but Israel lives rather well. Why was I not allowed? because tourists were not permitted that week as according to Israeli security. More like they do not want individuals seeing that the pictures we all see are real. Israel keeps both areas living is squall condition.
Bree has the right fix for this problem in mind though. Two separate states, Israel and Palestine. In the end, as israel was forced on the Arab world, this must too be forced on all. Some will fight it at first, but in the end, an existence will be reached.
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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DaisyUnchained, I would recognize that the Arabs lost a war with Israel and so my living condition is such that it is. I would be mad as heck that the other Arab nations left me to rot. I would take whatever Israel gave me.
Gaza is about 360 sq kilometers. It is not very big at all.
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