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Zanny- Interesting. So you would become a mass murderer, and commit suicide, if it weren't for your religion?
Dark Shadows- Well, perhaps the relationship is not causal. It could be the opposite way (ie. if you're living in a shitty place with shitty options, you turn to God/the Church out of desperation), but what I found interesting was that there was a negative correlation between a country's religiosity and it's social spending. Why would it be that in countries with a lot of religion, social spending declines, and increases in secular countries, if religion makes people behave better? And why would the more religious areas correlate with the higher levels of disease, murder, youth pregnancy, etc.?
Kasteele- I think that argument may be a little simplistic, and I personally didn't want to focus the discussion purely on Christianity. However, my mother goes to church every Sunday. I don't know that that makes her a liar.
BlackJeans- I hope the "anti-religion" label is not directed at me. I believe this is the first post I've done under religion threads, and I don't think the article is inherently anti-religion, but I posted it because I thought it was an interesting topic for discussion.
That aside, do I think mankind would be better off with an absence of religion? It's hard to say, but I do think it is a question worth studying. My problem with religion is not necessarily the teachings it is meant to put forward. I'd have to be an idiot to say that I thought the ten commandments were bull (except for maybe the false idols one...oh, and taking the Lord's name in vain. I'm not judging the morality of Christians. I am more concerned with the role that religion has taken on as it has become more powerful. For example: I think it's fair to say that religious figures are behind the push to teach "Intelligent Design" in school alongside the theory of evolution, as if it were a science. People try to present it as a debate among scientists, yet it is clear to anyone who has done any research that there is no debate - Intelligent Design is NOT science. But when religion grows in power and influence, I believe it leads to obscurantism, acceptance of unjust social structures, prejudice, and so on.
As for society falling without religion, I have to say that a good portion of societies fall because they are so wrapped up in religion, not because of the absence of it. You'd be hard pressed to tell me that Japan has fallen, and yet I don't believe there has been a "true God equation" in life there for a very long time.
Ash- I agree that people decide what they do in their personal lives, but that doesn't really speak to the societal influence of religion.
fabuluz- That is very scary. *l*
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hardcore, I would not call your mother a liar for going to church on Sunday, not at all. Those I would call liars are the ones who go to church once a week and the rest of the week do exactly the oposite of what they preach. Like the Prime Minister of my country or the president of the United States. They could cre less who dies for what they think is right, ignoring what they "say" they believe.
The arguement can be very simplistic, but it can also be extreamly in depth. But after arguing with some people around here, the points are useless. They read into your words only what they want them to say. Where if they read the simple words, they speak for themselves. In the end of things, I think most Christians and most of the faithful of the world are honest, real people. (we just have very few of them here)
Religion and fath is no simple subject. It is deep and involved as the deepest subjects in life. There is no one faith that is "the faith", there is no evil or pure faith. What there is though, is people. Some filled with love and as is the case for so many in the Pork, some filled with nothing but hate. Societies do not fail because of faith or religion, they fail because of twisting faiths.
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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Bree, your ride has arrived
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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Okay, I'm a bit under the weather so if I end up typing nonsense, Matt, just kiss me and make it ALL better. 
I believe people are focusing too much on the more popular religions when they're discussing this issue. In fact, when people argue religion they tend to mainly focus on the ideals and customs that come from Christianity unless the debate is solely focused on something like Judaism or Hinduism.
Enough about that, though. Before one can truly argue about religion and whether it's doing the world good or bad, they need to know where it came from and why religion became a factor in the lives of so many people. What is religion anyway? It's a world wide ancient philosophy where belief is the theory and worship is the practice. I mean, look at us here today. We have the freedom and the capacity to argue over religion and whether it does us any good or not... yet, 100+ years ago, people didn't have this freedom. Some people today still don't have this freedom. They relied on their religious beliefs to see them through turmoil and chaos in an unsteady world. Sometimes you don't even have a choice. Sometimes you're brought up to believe what your ancestors believed. If your ancestors believed in Totemism, then you were born into Totemism and therefore you believed in Totemism.
Our biggest problem as a western born culture is that we tend to have common fallacies when it comes to religion and the world's religions. We often think that belief is central to all religions just as it is Christianity, that these beliefs are used to explain and offer grounds for these people's behaviors, that the belief is a pyschological condition and a fundamentally interior state, and that the determination of the belief is more important than the object of belief. This is not always the case.
So until we stop viewing religion from one state of mind, the western viewpoint, there isn't really anything to argue about on whether its doing the world more good or bad. From our point of view it's doing the world bad.. but that could just be from the way we perceive things because we were brought up to look at them from a different point of view.
~ you came into my life like a brick through a window, and I cracked a smile. ~
~ you came into my life like a brick through a window, and I cracked a smile. ~
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zanny, that begs a question then. Why would you kill innocent Islamic people then? read back in other threads, you state clearly all Islamics should die. or was that just bad communication like I hope?
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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Zanny, if you limit extermination of Islamics to terrorists and then include all other terrorists of all natons, then I would stand right beside you in agreeance. Anyone who would send forces to murder innocents is a terrorist. Read in to that what you wish, my stand has been stated rather clear. My disagreement has always simply been that not all, not even most Islamics are evil or terrorists, or even fanatics.
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true, is really true, there would be little hope of advance......
Orville Wright
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